* You cannot help the poor, by destroying the rich.
* You cannot strengthen the weak, by weakening the strong.
* You cannot bring about prosperity, by discouraging thrift.
* You cannot lift the wage earner up, by pulling the wage payer down.
* You cannot further the brotherhood of man, by inciting class hatred.
* You cannot build character and courage, by taking away men's initiative
and independence.
* You cannot help men permanently, by doing for them what they could and
should, do for themselves."
- Abraham Lincoln
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13 comments:
First of all, no one is destroying the rich. The rich will stay rich. The rich set up in this country and make enormous profits off the American people. They then turn around with their giagantic profits and tax cuts and have enough money to move their shops overseas where they can exploit the poor over there by paying them even less for the same work. And they don't have to be accountable for any of it. They can do whatever they want, even if their very actions are gluttony, pure greed and exploitation.
I just don't understand how someone truly religious can be against abortion but for this kind of behavior from corporations. There's more than one way to be pro life, you know. The people that are already here matter too, not just the unborn.
Most people just don't understand the tax plan.
Here it is:
If you make less than $19,000-
under Obama you save $567, McCain- $21.
If you make $19,000 - $37,000, under Obama you save $892, McCain $118.
If you make $37,600 - $66,400, under Obama you save $1118, under McCain $325.
If you make $66,400 - $111,600, under Obama you save $1264, McCain $994.
If you make $111,600 - $161,000, under Obama you save $2135, McCain $2584.
If you make $161,000 - $227,000, under Obama you save $2796, McCain $4437.
If you are under the TOP 5% of earners- that's right, the top 5%- you would:
$227,000 - $603,400: under Obama PAY $121, under McCain *SAVE* $8,159.
$603,400 - $2.78 million: Under Obama PAY UP TO: $93,709, under McCain **SAVE** up to: $48,862.
Top 1%: more than 2.87 million: Under Obama PAY: $542,882- McCain **SAVE**: $290, 708.
No one is stealing from the rich- their taxes are simply being adjusted to be more fair. Under the same mindset as a conservative I can say that the government is stealing from me, too, because I pay taxes. It's against my will- I don't WANT to pay taxes. Why is it ok for me to pay taxes and it's not considered stealing from me but asking the top 5% of earner to pay a little more is stealing? Maybe there should just be a flat fee and everyone pay 10%- like church? Would you tell your top earner in church that he doesn't have to pay 10% because 10% for HIM would be so much more than 10% from Mary from the deli? It actually causes a much larger financial crunch for Mary to give her 10% than it does for Mark, the Wall Street CEO. I'll bet for church people should be expected to give their full 10% no matter what their job. Am I wrong? God believed in a flat fee...
thank you Jersey Girl.
you are so lost, I wouldn't know where to start.
repeat after me: I am a socialist, I am a socialist, I am a socialist.
goodbye now.
Well, explain then. I was specific about what I just don't get. So, help me to get it. Please.
I'm confused. What did Bush just do with the ecomony? Umm, didn't he just use tax payer money to buy up all the bad mortgages, now government owned? Is that not socialism? Wasn't that ***redistribution of wealth***???
I get it- socialism is only acceptable when it is providing golden parachutes for the corporations. If it's put in place to help the less fortunate, it's an abhorration.
Why is this ok?
Jersey Girl, if you really care to interact, and aren't just visiting this blog to tell me how wrong I am (which is fine) I will explain.
one point at a time though.
You said, "The rich set up this country to make enormous profits off the American people. They then turn around with their gigantic profits and tax cuts and have enough money to move their shops overseas...." etc.
Questions: do you know any "rich" people? What is rich? Did you know that the wealthiest 1% of the people in America pay 50% of the taxes in this country (yes, that would be half) and that the wealthiest 20% pay 90% of the taxes in this country?
did you knwo if you make under 37k, you might be getting money under Obama, but it is not your money, because you are paying no federal income tax in most cases (fica is not federal income tax, it is your social security contribution). So what is really coming back is charity from the government?
Do you have a job? Does a rich person or a poor person own the company? who is paying you?
did you know that when you increase the tax on rich people you take away money for them to invest and expand business in America? that they will hire less people, and give less raises?
Did you know that in America anyone can work hard and keep what they earn (at least you used to)? therefore we have enourmous upward mobility?
Did you know that the poor in our country live like kings compared to the rest of the world's poor (go to Mexico city and see if people living in garbage dumps have refridgerators, beds, soft chairs, cable t.v., etc, etc, that the majority of our poorest all have.)
Did you know that the rich didn't set up our country to make enourmous profits off of everyone else, but that they get rich by hard work? Did you know that you are a victim of class envy thinking?
You might want Obama's handouts, But I don't. I will provide for myself, thank you, and I am not rich. I'd like to be rich, wouldn't you?
Jersey Girl, you view on economics is designed to keep you dependent on government.
Go get a Milton Friedman book. Read it. Tell me where he is wrong. Till then, you are only parroting what you've been told.
principle: money will always go where it is rewarded. if you over-tax manufacturers in America, guess what? Manufacturers in China (not even Americans) will make the goods cheaper. If you raise taxes on corporations, guess what: they raise their costs to the consumer (that would be you), the cut salaries (that would be yours), they cut jobs (your job). If you force them to buy healthcare, they can't hire as many people nor pay as many people.
Listen girl, there is not a pot of gold out there being withheld from you. Provide for yourself and teach others to do likewise. Don't look for the government and corporations to do it for you. The government is a bad manager and the corporations will leave, and poverty is the result. look at our inner cities. Who did that mess? Government welfare, and government care. that's who.
True charity is not government forced. Greed is not reserved for the rich. poor people are greedy too. and so are middle class people. and so are upper middle class people. and so is everyone. welcome to reality.
I know the poor, the real poor. I and the Christians I know give real help, real relationship, meet real needs, teach real life skills. It costs me real money.
Study your history. Study economics. put down your talking points.
jersey girl, what makes you think I'm president Bush?
become a thinker, not a parrot.
Thank you for that- I can see some of your points, but it will take me a little time to respond to all of it.
I am self-employed. I have a service business. I'm my boss, and my only employee. I cater to the middleclass. Eight years ago, my business and other businesses just like it were doing very well. There's been a steady decline over the last eight years, with many people who've been in business 30 or more years going under. I know other people in other businesses related to my business and they have also seen a steady decline, some doing poorly for the first time, ever in their history.
I know a bill collector for a utility company. Things are bad everywhere. People that have always had good businesses are now on the collection list, and people that have never had trouble getting their electric paid are now having trouble.
If the current economy structure was working, why are things on the rise for corporations and on decline for the middle down? I'm not a parrot. I'm saying what I see. People are scared.
A few more things:
The richest county on earth, thanks to our economic policies. Lets look at that.
The richest country on earth- trillions of dollars in debt.
The richest country on earth, having to borrow from China to keep the promise of giving a $1500 check to families.
The richest country on earth, causing a global recession, possibly depression, unprecedented in history.
The richest country on earth, yet won't provide healthcare for those who can't afford it- those less fortunate, bankrupting them, causing them to lose what little they managed to have. (You've probably never seen Sicko by Michael Moore. I find most conservatives want to remain blind to the reality of healthcare in this country.)
The richest country on earth, who's dollar is quickly losing value at a rapid pace in the world.
So, are we REALLY the richest country in the world, or do some of the richest people in the world just happen to live here?
If what you say was true- Bush wouldn't borrow from China to keep promises of checks. There is something seriously wrong with borrowing from China to give tax relief checks. How in the world can anyone defend our current economic policies? Things spiraled terribly out of control under these policies. Obama just wants to put things back to how they were before they became broken.
Jerseygirl said "It actually causes a much larger financial crunch for Mary to give her 10% than it does for Mark, the Wall Street CEO."
That's kind of backwards. I had a much harder time tithing my 10% when I was middle class than I have the last 3 years as "poor". It's much much harder to write a check over $500 than it is to empty my wallet of it's last $7.
I think there should be a equal rate tax, regardless of whether you make $400 a year or $400 million. Tax cuts for the rich isn't giving them anything, it's just taking a little less obscene of an amount of their money.
jersey girl, your reasoning goes like this: the economy is bad, therefore, George Bush did something to make it that way.
this is too simplistic. If this is your level of understanding of what is happening economically, you are woefully uneducated. That's okay with me. Be who you want to be. But it is too tedious for me to explain to you, especially since you don't care what I say.
have a good day.
jersey girl, if I were to make a bunch of arguments to explain my position I wouldn't say things better than can be said by others.
With that in mind, if you really want to hear another side (and don't just comment to tell me how wrong you think I am) then try this website as an example of enlightening views of economics.
as for the issues of life and war and the poor and other things, Perhaps I'll try to hit those more later.
really, you are a very patient person to even read these posts and comments that you don't agree with that. For this, I complement you.
here's the web address:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/
mike
Thanks for the links- I will check them out. Truthfully, I prefer to think myself as woefully open-minded and having more than one perspective of things. I can see both sides of the issue, and understand why each side thinks what they think, not just one side with little to no tolerance or understanding of the other.
While I do agree with some of what you say, I don't agree with it all. Ideally, a conservative plan sounds great. But realistically, it doesn't work.
And your simplistic description of my reasoning as to why the economy is bad is wrong. I may not be able to describe in detail the way the experts do- but apparantly neither can you as you rely on links to describe your points of view. For as many links to educated sites as you can put down in support of your viewpoint, there are likewise links to educated places where I can do the same.
Obama is not a socialist. I don't know how in face of what Republican George Bush has done with 750 billion dollars of tax payer money (taking taxpayer money and handing it over to Wall Street, and having government buy and now OWN the bad mortgages- which is unequivocally redistribution of wealth and a blatant socialistic act) can you stand there and point fingers at Obama like HE is the bad guy. He has to clean up the mess *others* made before him. You think that's going to be an easy job to do as big as that mess is? Oh wait- McCain with the same bush policies would take over and magically everything would fix itself (he must be a socialist, too, since he wanted the goverment to buy even MORE of those bad mortgages, as he touted during is second debate and then for every speech he made after.)
You hold such contempt for Obama- but everything Bush did was AOK, including disregarding the Goenova agreement and employing torture, and misleading our country into war, and being the aggressor.
Maybe you don't talk to many foreign people- but I DO. I speak with people from the UK, Sweden, Canada just about every day because of the private forum I belong to that caters to my kind of business, and we talk about other things, too- not just business. I have a very clear picture of how the world views the United States right now- and you know what? Not very many people like us anymore. Think it's just terrorists that don't like us? It's more widespread than that. They seem to like our people, but they don't like this government. Bush hasn't just destroyed the morale of the people in our country- he has greatly damaged the world's opinion of us as a humane, compassionate, peace-keeping country who would use it's power for good. Bush taught the world that words and contracts and the United Nations mean nothing- that when we see fit we will do what we want, when we want, and how we want, and we don't care what they think. So all bets are off and we can look forward to our guys being tortured as revenge if they are ever captured. And we can't say they are the bad guys- because WE did it, too!!!
Sarah Palin was a joke to the UK and even though they had no idea who Obama's running mate was, they all knew about Sarah Palin and was bewildered at her being chosen. They were laughing and shaking their heads at the absurdity of it. When voting time came, the UK folks encouraged us to "do the right thing" and get the current system OUT. I would still vote for who I wanted, but the UK was for Obama, believe me, as well as the other democracies in the world.
What you don't get is when looking at governments from a global standpoint, conservatism is a very very small minority of people. The rest of the world's democracies are a lot more liberal, and the liberal side of the US gets along better with the rest of the world, which helps in being united and acting as one.
Well, now I'm getting too complicated because I am elabortaing on how the US fits in with the rest of the world and that's not something conservatives really want to know about or care about.
It's been nice sharing views with you.
Linda, open minded? Please. you parrot the left positions as if you are Al Frankin. You like Obama, who has no experience and care what England thinks of Palen who excelled at everything she's done and has more experience than Obama?
Listen, you are not informed, you are indoctrinated.
I don't say this to be mean, but I'm not good at beating around the bush.
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